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Mental_Knife
Blood Guard
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 597
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 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Re: ShS |
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| Spoonguardd wrote: | | Since the ShS damage buff is fairly useless (most of the time, since the skill is usually needed for mobility), how about altering it. "+20% damage for 5 seconds". Yes this would probably be overpowered duration/%, but i belive a similar buff that is not consumed by one hit (since ShS rogues dont realy have a high damage "single hit" skill) would help to give rogues a greater burst. Full energy + ShS and nuke would in no way be overpowered but at the same time, give rogues a chance to nuke a target when it is needed. |
Aiiiee I disagree, although I see where you're coming from. The Shs damage buff is win for me most of the time. Also do not forget MoS (Master of Subtlety). With a shadowstep while stealthed, your first attack is subject to the shs damage buff as well as MoS, then MoS buff for the next six seconds. This is similar to what you're looking for although it does require stealth. I say forget about a single hit high damage, just shadowstep in stealth, and spam hemo deals a decent amount of pain to any target... and could be considered a nuke IMO. A duration damage buff after Shs without stealth would be overpowered, I'm fine with the stealth compromise. If you have the presence of mind to vanish before Shs it will work out a lot better for you (assuming you have MoS). |
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Mental_Knife
Blood Guard
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Osiris wrote: | | I disagree. On paper, DW is our highest damage talent even in PvP with shit for hit gear. Is it an absolute "must"? No. Track your damage with both specs. It's a big loss. I do agree that assassination is the way to go for high end arenas but mostly because of vile poisons. |
An excellent point, and much respect to your opinion! But I'll bet a lot of us have found that in the chaotic world of arena, time on target is an issue. There is more to be considered than what's on paper. A medium-size (1200+ ish) burst crit hemo is of higher value than a feeble boost to offhand white damage (and shiv?). Given a stationary target I'd agree DW may be the way to go but with chasing fleeing opponents, etc. I won't buy that it's better than spec'ing for high damage crit specials in terms of arena fights.
| Osiris wrote: | Cheat death is an AWESOME talent. It's probably going to get nerfed in 2.4 to what the tooltip says but it will still be a godsend. You are practically invulnerable when this is activated. I can't count how many times CD has saved my life in my last 100 games. It's just enough time to escape and bandage. I even found myself in a couple of 1v2 situations where I was able to finish off one guy that was low, blind the other guy, restealth and finish the second guy 1v1.
Have I died in 1v1 situations despite cheat death? Of course. This is a tremendous amount of survivability though and I could go on and on about different situations that I have found this to be incredibly viable. |
I'm kind of low on the arena rating totem pole but this in no way resembles my experience. It may be at higher arena rating levels that this becomes more valuable. With all my attempts at using cheat death, I was never able to escape, let alone also bandage. Opponents that see me at such low health are not going to let me escape. This sounds like it may work in 5v5 where your opponent would be more prone to give up chasing and choose a new target, since he has more choices. However, this has definitely convinced me that to revisit cheat death in the future and give it another chance. |
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Derath
First Sergeant
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 266
Location: Argent Dawn (EU - Alliance)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I just respecced 20/0/41..from 17/3/41...from 0/20/41...from HARP
And dam I miss AR and imp. sprint, and to a lesser extent imp. gouge.
Vile poisons is good stuff vs druids bur I run with a discpriest that's a very good dispeller so it's value is lessened somewhat, same goes for blessing of freedom.
I'm almost tempted to switch 2 points into EA since that debuff can't be removed (pally bubble will i think) and my prist partner can help my stay on target with dispels and the occasional mindflay (priest: 45/5/13).
With priest partner I think the value of VP i lessened and I'm tempted to switch back into combat for imp. gouge and imp. sprint.
I'm also considering switching my trinket to a second DPS trinket for more dps. What's your thought's on this? My priest usually manages to keep me dispelled.
Cheat death is very nice with a healer partner.
I miss the burst from harp. Or even 1 AR bad. |
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Max_Killfactor
Senior Sergeant
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Firavel - Twisting Nether (Horde)
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Cheat death is one of the main reasons I tried shadowstep. My team lost 2 very close games in a row because of death cheating opponent, so I switched from combat mutilate to try ShS.
As much I liked mutilate, I like ShS more. My arena ratings stayed the same with my affliction lock partner, but I feel much more useful and as I get used to the spec I have no doubts that our rating will finally stay above 1600 (we have the tendency to break 1600 and then lose 3 games in a row).
Cheat death has saved me countless times. Combined with a healthstone from my lock partner and my battlemasters trinket, it makes me very hard to bring down and I've won at least 3 games directly because of cheat death. In 3s we have a resto shaman partner and cheat death has allowed a number of clutch heals. |
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Trefal
Scout
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 19
Location: US-Whisperwind
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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I really doubted ShS from my previous experience with it when I first hit lvl 70 many moons ago (and patches).
I recently respec'd from 20/41/0 combat maces to a XX/0/4X Shadowstep Build. ShS is definately viable now in PvP. I like Cheat Death. Hemo hits hard with S2 maces. I am still trying to get used to the playstyle though.
I have not tested it raiding. My guild only does Karazhan and Gruul right now. I will try my new talents on Gruul this weekend and see how it goes. My gear spreadsheet says I should lose about 12% to 15% DPS. I die a lot in Gruul's Lair during the fight, so I am hoping that Cheat Death will keep me DPSing longer. Less DPS, but longer total damage will be a big help.
So anyways, I was a ShS doubter for a long time. I wouldn't call it the one and only way to play a rogue, but it seems at least viable now with the recent changes.
Prior to the recent changes, no way. It was a fun way to play, but you couldn't kill anyone in PvP with the old ShS.
Last edited by Trefal on Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mogesh
First Sergeant
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 250
Location: Auchindoun, Horde
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Regarding ShS I have a few questions:
1) What weapons are you using? I like maces because I feel it gives the impression of Mace spec and can be decieving, however, they do look cool in my orc's hands also.
2) How many points are you running in Camo? And what about the Crit reduction of Feint that adds up to a good chunk of Res? I got into a discussion with a rogue about this and he made some valid points. 2% reduction is a fair amount and 5sec compared to 7 sec isn't that big a deal.
3) I have been trying to use rupture alot lately and I find that in 2s if there is a healer you are wasting your time. Doesn't matter about armor class if I have hemo and EA on it is just not cutting it. On the other hand if it is dual DPS I love it because I can get and EA and Hemo up smack a rupture on and ShS tto the other guy for a lil smacking around.
Question is, is this a common finding or is everyone using rupture alot with great success?
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Trefal
Scout
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 19
Location: US-Whisperwind
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mogesh wrote: |
1) What weapons are you using? |
I have S2 Maces and S2 Daggers. I've thought about using MH Mace and OH Dagger just for looks now that Mace Specialization is no longer an issue. You have a good point though, going duel maces might offer a slight deception to someone who is really paying attention and knows rogues.
| Quote: | | 2) How many points are you running in Camo? And what about the Crit reduction of Feint that adds up to a good chunk of Res? |
I have 5/5 Camo, but many many times I have shaved off a point or two to put somewhere else. I think 4/5 Camo is almost the same when you take latency and other stuff into account. 3/5 Camo, you can notice the difference I think. Anything less than 3/5 Camo, and IMO you might as well go ZERO points.
Camo to me is a real asset in both Arena and Battlegrounds. I can often get out of the action and restealth without wasting a vanish.
| Quote: | | 3) I have been trying to use rupture alot lately and I find that in 2s if there is a healer you are wasting your time. Doesn't matter about armor class if I have hemo and EA on it is just not cutting it. On the other hand if it is dual DPS I love it because I can get and EA and Hemo up smack a rupture on and ShS tto the other guy for a lil smacking around. |
I like using Rupture when I think there is a strong chance I will be CC'd or lose contact with my intended kill target. Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry are nice (when I was combat), but I found I was getting CC'd a lot right when I activated those.
I use Rupture on Mages and Warriors and other Rogues:
1. Warriors because their armor is so high.
2. Mages ... well they blink and dart all over the place. I try to get any kind of DOT I can on them so my damage is ticking away their life. They get out of stuns too easy. Nothing pleases me more though than being frosted to the ground, watching the nearly-dead mage blink away, and then flipping them a 4 or 5 point Deadly Throw. KILLING BLOW! 
3. Other Rogues. This ruins Vanish. I can't tell you the number of times I hit other Rogues with Rupture, watch them CloS and then Vanish. 1 second later, they reappear for their whoopin'! I've still got mine
Everyone else, I try to lock down with stuns and use instant attacks. Slice N Dice is great for PvP. I've never used EA. I need to play with that more now that I have more combo points up front with deep Subtlety. |
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Sithius
First Sergeant
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 269
Location: Genova - Ravencrest (Alliance)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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I kinda find the point of rupturing a mage to be pointless, unless you know they will bandage and you wan't to prevent them from it. For max damage, I think finishers like Eviscerate or Exposed Armor will give you the most damage overall. Eviscerate because well, it's cloth, and it does instant damage and won't get removed by Ice Block either. Exposed armor because well... Really really low armor + expose armor = WIN!
I know, IB removes it but say its 3v3 or 5v5 and you manage to get them to use both ice blocks, then its just AWESOME.
Or if you just have a feeling they won't use IB any time soon then go ahead, it should be good imo :p.
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Genova - Ravencrest (Alliance) |
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AshEU
Senior Sergeant
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Ashuna-AszuneEU(Horde)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Using Rupture on mages is just a waste imo, save it for a KS instead to force trinket, IB or blink.
I prefer 20/0/41 over 20/41 mainly because I never seem to run out of energy and vs teams with a poison dispeller its a must, Sure missing out on Precision, Imp Sprint and DW spec sucks.
Currently 2v2 with a feral druid been up at 1700 before facing GG teams. Pally/Sl, War/Druid, BM hunter/SL.
Hopefully joining a 3DPS team this week with Mage/hunter. |
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SmilingJakk
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Location: Everywhere
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Mogesh wrote: | Regarding ShS I have a few questions:
1) What weapons are you using? I like maces because I feel it gives the impression of Mace spec and can be decieving, however, they do look cool in my orc's hands also. |
I've heard great things about using Maces deep Sub. I myself find them looking less then elegant, and opted to go with S1 Glad Fists. I should also mention that I've been full Sub since I rolled my Rogue, and weilded daggers until I faced the sad fact that I was holding my Arena Team down. Since changing to Fists I've found that my DPS has grown incredibly and my options have increased in combat.
| Quote: | | 2) How many points are you running in Camo? And what about the Crit reduction of Feint that adds up to a good chunk of Res? I got into a discussion with a rogue about this and he made some valid points. 2% reduction is a fair amount and 5sec compared to 7 sec isn't that big a deal. |
I have 5 points in Camo, as well as Cat's Swiftness on my boots. Every little bit of mobility helps imo, and I'm quite happy with it. In world PvP and ganking you'll find that, depending on your hunting ground, that 5 sec cooldown can definately be a big deal.
| Quote: | 3) I have been trying to use rupture alot lately and I find that in 2s if there is a healer you are wasting your time. Doesn't matter about armor class if I have hemo and EA on it is just not cutting it. On the other hand if it is dual DPS I love it because I can get and EA and Hemo up smack a rupture on and ShS tto the other guy for a lil smacking around.
Question is, is this a common finding or is everyone using rupture alot with great success? |
A tricky subject, since I usually am on the Healer first. Against the healer I tend to go with CS or EA, unless they are squishy and their health is low enough for me to try an Eviscerate or go the safe route with SnD.
Only classes I'll usually tag with Rupture is a Plate Bearer, Druid in Bear form or another Rogue.
If I may add one more thing; The versatility in ShS lays in the ability to "pitbull" your opponent, especially kiters. Try to resist the urge to pop it in your opener. Keep it as a surprise for those who attempt to distance themselves. You'll be glad you did. |
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je147
Sergeant
Joined: 25 Dec 2005
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| I find doing garrote, prem and rupture on mage who is in 2v2 dps team is the best thing to do as shs. Many times it will conjure a quick ice block to remove the dots. |
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Sithius
First Sergeant
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 269
Location: Genova - Ravencrest (Alliance)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| je147 wrote: | | I find doing garrote, prem and rupture on mage who is in 2v2 dps team is the best thing to do as shs. Many times it will conjure a quick ice block to remove the dots. |
Ehm, that's just bad, a mage shouldnt use IB to remove rogue dots, it won't happend, seriously . And even so, if he actually IB's that's even worse! He removes most of the damage on your finisher, if you had spent it on eviscerate he couldve taken MUCH more damage.
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