Let's Talk Shadowstep in Arenas

[Osiris]

All forums have endless questions and statements about SHS these days. So I thought I'd consolidate our discussions here.

Please note that my thoughts on this subject are related to arenas. Not world PvP, not duels and not battlegrounds.

When SHS was first introduced into the game, I thought that it was the coolest thing ever. I played around with it in TBC beta for quite a few hours. I put it off to the side for a long time and decided to give it another look in season 1 just to really get a better feel for it. I must say that I have come to like it less and less as time goes on.

I am specced 20/0/41 right now. Despite my dislike for it, no other spec fills the needs of my teams like SHS does at this time. One thing that I found to be a must is preparation. Having two evasions, vanishes and sprints is huge. I am finding that I need this amount of utility for my own personal survivability and to break enough snares to get to my targets.

Another reason that I have decided to go with SHS is because I no longer feel it is viable to burn someone down quickly with burst builds like 41 combat. I can get all the CC in the world, be completely ignored, but even a clothie in full S3 gear has far too much HP/resilience/armor for me to burn him down quickly enough. To even come close, I need to burn everything that I have. If I do this and fail to take that opponent down, I am left with none of my defensive abilities and am very vulnerable. S3 arenas are about controlling the right person at the right time. For us, this is druids and mages in particular. I need SHS to stay on these types of opponents. I also need it to switch targets which tends to happen a lot in many season 3 strategies.

20/0/41 or 0/20/41? I have been playing with both very extensively. I am a HUGE fan of the combat tree but one thing that I am finding more and more valuable is vile poisons. Anything that I can do to reduce the amount of poison dispels is a huge plus. The more I can keep wound and crippling poison up on my targets, the more damage I can do. There is no better means of damage through talents than vile poisons against teams who can dispel poison.

A lot of people that spec into assassination say that they do it because the assassination talents do better burst damage and provide more energy and combo points. This is so small in my experience. The damage that you get from precision and DW specialization trumps everything in the assassination tree up to 20 points except vile poisons and that is really only damage through utility.

There is a big debate in Neilyo's post in the official wow forums where he is complaining about the problems we have with snares and that SHS should remove immobilizing effects or make us immune to immobilization for a few seconds after performing SHS. I do agree that SHS offers very little in terms of mobility when we are the focus of CC and snares. But the answer today is improved sprint. It's nice to have that tiny extra burst, extra energy and combo points and vile poisons in assassination but if you can't even get to your target, get improved sprint.

I do agree that improved sprint should be a default or that SHS needs to provide us with a little more mobility advantages.

A lot of people also ask how to gem/enchant for SHS. Right now, I am very heavy on +AP gems from my HARP days and I haven't made any changes because I am waiting to see what happens in 2.4. Assuming that we see no changes, I will be going with almost pure +agility gems. This benefits both Sinister Calling and Deadliness. Agility also equals crit and I am a huge fan of crit in PvP.

I would like to close with the fact that I do not think that SHS is the only way to 2400. I don't believe it for a second. There are plenty of top rated rogues out there who are mutilate or combat. Heck, a couple of them are still HARP. I also think that SHS is the hardest build to play. 41+ in subtlety equals an insane amount of cooldowns to manage. SHS itself is extremely difficult to master. Knowing when to use it is very challenging. It can be used offensively and defensively. It can be used to get back on a target that is far away or it can be used for damage. This is a tough call. Should I use it to get on the druid who is running away? I can't tell you how many times I have used it on a fleeing druid and still didn't catch him. I do not recommend SHS for someone trying to break out of the 1400-1600 range. The level of skill that you will see in your opponents won't require this level of mobility. I would personally go for a big burst damage spec until you start to consistently face skilled kiting hunters, mages and druids.
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Osiris

Necronious Level 70 rogue - Kalecgos (transferred from Tichondrious)

Osiris' Rogue Guide (no longer updating)
https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dt4f32p_4dcj7jt&hl=en_US

[gwystyl]

At the request of my disc priest, I've gone ShS. I warned him about no burst and I explained my 2 options (ass or com). He prefered that I go the combat route for mobility. We haven't gone into arenas while I practiced in bg's and on my LOL 1600 5's.

The way he wants me to play is to simply chip away at my target, then switch usingShS while he heals me. The idea is to survive a burst 2 dps team or wear down a dps/healer team. I'm not sure I'm good enough to play the game he wants me to play but I can definitely see that cooldown management and decision making will decide who is good and who sucks.

I don't think you can be mediocre at this spec.
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[Kaveli]

Shadow step in experience takes a long time to get use to. It's an entirely different mindset altogether. For me I'm very use to being combat as a pvp spec. I'm use to the potency procs and i pvp sort of like i pve.

I myself am going to try and put some time and learn the ways of the shadowstep a bit better.

I'm still convinced it sucks though.
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Kaveli
Nidhogg Officer
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Area+52&n=Kaveli

[Mental_Knife]

I'm running 20/0/41 and liking it in arena. The key for me was getting out of that 'combat' mentality (hit rating, dual wield, low crit, high AP, sustained damage, rah rah rah). Now it's all about high crit (35%+), high AP, 7% hit, semi-burst damage (rah rah rah?).

My 2v2 rating is only in the high 1500's, but mostly due to just not being able to keep a team together. Working very well right now with a feral druid, winning more matches than ever with 20/0/41. Having a crit rating over 40% in the arena is win.

Take it or leave it, but I wouldn't advise putting ANY points in combat if doing damage is a priority for you with shadowstep. There is very little at the bottom of the combat tree that will help you do damage in a subtlety build. If you still believe combat is the way to go I urge you to put 20 in assassination, gem up for crit (35%+), then AP (agility gems should cover it), and keep 7% hit... then get out there and see what I'm talking about.

OPINION #1: Dual wield spec is irrelevant! With x/x/41 your offhand is nothing more than a poison shivver, it will miss a lot anyway, and you should let it go... put the fastest epic OH you have there. Better yet, think of your offhand as having the relevance of your thrown weapon. You get stat boosts from equipping it and occasionally it comes in handy for deadly throw. Your OH is the same, but it's shiv instead of deadly throw.

OPINION #2: Yes, imp sprint and imp. gouge are valuable but not worth the trade off of damage output.

OPINION #3: Shadowstep is an incredibly valuable ability. Do everything you can to find a spec and gear that maximizes your damage output unless you want to be nothing more than a distraction in arena (not that there's anything wrong with being a distraction but I'd rather pour on the hurt myself). Hint: Use the assassination tree.

OPINION #4: Cheat Death, to me, is a waste. I tried it, and only in rare arena instances will it keep you from dying... usually it will just give you a few seconds to wave goodbye. They should rename it "Prolong Death". MIGHT be useful if you're running with a healer but I didn't use it long enough to find out. I am seeing more and more Shs rogues in arena than ever, it seems they are catching on... and a lot of them use Cheat/Prolong Death. I killed them anyway.

IMO xx/0/4x builds are the way to go right now. From full energy you can fire off four hemos and a rupture fairly quickly, enough to cut most opponents in half so that they think about taking a defensive stance, ie running away! That is a good thing. If your partner is also on the same opponent, and can take the other half of his HP away, well that's even better.

On a side note this spec is also versatile enough to make PvE grinding easy, keep you competitive in battlegrounds... and believe it or not (the haters will flame) but even make a decent showing on the damage meters in raids (given LoTP and totems). Lately I'm top three in every 25-man run sometimes even leading.

[je147]

Hi. Thanks for the heads up on gems. My self are trying to buy some BT gems for the Vengeful gear i have 3 pieces atm. Was thinking of 20Ap in red sockets and 10AP 5 crit for yellow. So Osiris should i should buy 10 Agi instead of 20AP then? Using 10 Agi gems will be good also if switching to Mutilate.

[Osiris]

[Wadd]

[gwystyl]

Simple. My #2 rogue is a 2k dps rogue. When he specs ShS and forgets to show up combat to a raid, it drops to 1700. And he's quite proficient raiding 20/0/41. And, no, the hemo debuff is not worth 300+ raid dps.

The only time it was a true statement that hemo was competitive to combat was back in the level 60 days with a non-normalized hemo and a 2.9 GM Longsword. There is no vindication here, a shadowstep build will suffer in terms of raid damage to a combat build. Being 15% below where you could be is not an acceptably close margin.

And, in case you think I'm a "hater," the long time posters here will all admit to calling me out on hemo back in the 1.12 days when I was using it and crushing people on meters. I seem to recall lots of "must be unsynced meters" and "your guildies must suck" comments. You can even find the legacy thread if you care to search for it.

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[Osiris]

[Wadd]

We are not saying that ShS is THE spec for raid, combat still is... what we are saying is that it can dish out some good dmg compare to what people think.

[Osiris]

[Mental_Knife]

Ugh let's not turn this into a combat vs. everything else raid damage discussion. Besides, once you hit 1500dps, who's counting? When we killed Lurker once, I was second on the meter to a combat rogue (he barely beat me)... funny thing was I'm in all l33t epics and he still had a few blues or greens and beat out everyone. I will say I took a few detours to help out on the island ranged adds while he stayed focused so I coulda taken 'em.

Anyway, there are a lot of us who don't want to respec every time we raid (me!). The way my guild works I could be called at a moment's notice for a 10-man or something so there's usually no time.

I don't mind having seperate raid gear but it's a pain to respec between PvP and raid. Not worth the extra beef in raid damage IMO. For me, combat is terrible and definitely not fun vs 20/0/41 in PvP, period. To have a superior PvP and grinding spec, that can stay near the top of the 25-man meter is golden.

On a different note, have any other Shs-ers in arena had trouble with the graveyard arena? I get into some very frustrating situations where an opponent is running in circles around that center structure and I can never seem to catch him. As gay as he looks doing so, it seems to be a good way to thwart melee opponents. Any suggestions?

[Jakani]

[Osiris]

[Mogesh]

Yhe tomb isn't too bad. But I have had a lot of trouble ShS up on the bridge (can't remember name). It works 50% of time and occassionally I ShS just to fall off the edge. Need to do some more practicing I guess.

I do have to tell you about this cool thing that happened to me in Netherstorm using ShS. I had 5 CPs on a pally with about 5-7% life left who stunned me and flew barely off the ground where he didn't think I could swat him. I ShS Evis him for 3XXX and he fell to the ground dead. Now tell me what combat spec can do that.LOL

Just kidding everybuild has its place and next patch that is all subject to change.


I just agree ShS rocks in Arena and BG.
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[Axler]

Just my 2c but in small scale arena (2s and3s) you absolutely must be able to catch and kill the druid, that means Vile Poisons and Prep otherwise I just don't see how you can do it versus a Druid that can play.

Assuming Vile and Prep are must have's the only specs available are 30/0/31, 20/0/41 and 2x/0/3x.

Assas has Fleet which is nice but won't make enough of a difference on a druid kite, I don't do 2s with a healer so QR is a waste, Imp KS on the other hand would be good for the KS/Shatter synergy. SF is nice but not worth 5 points considering your Hemo will have a 30% or so crit.

On the Sub side we have MoS which I personally like front loads your DPS a little more to try to push someone towards defensive play, also I'm a little undergeared so I sometimes need to vanish/CS on the end of my KS to get the extra time to finish a Druid off so MoS adds a little there. Cheat death has won me matches no doubt, it procs I hit my battlemasters trinket vanish and find somewhere quiet to eat. SC 15% more Agi and 10% Hemo damage not a lot to say it's simply a good way to spend 5 points.

Finally we have Shs 25 yard range and sprint for 3 secs. Granted the sprint part is just there because Bliz couldn't get the original version to work with latency unless you Shs'd someone standing still or walking backwards. Hunters hate it, Mages hate it, Locks hate it and it's the only chance you have to close the gap on a druid in travel form (sprint is only 10%? faster so if you need to make any sort of distance on him his hots would have brought him back to full by the time you get there, and your sprint will be pretty much gone). The 20% damage buff is incidental in my mind yes nice if you Shs into a Rupture but not the best use of a Shs.

On balance 20/0/41 is the least worst option imo yes it does lack any sort of burst, but it's a pressure build it lets you stay on top of someone nearly constantly well until your CD's are all gone anyway.

I should point out that I didn't mention CB as outside of Muti it isn't really that useful with Evis being decidedly underpowered. Also Enveloping Shadows which I think is very underrated 15% resistance to a very large list of effects isn't to be sniffed at but there is no room for it in a Druid killer build which is what this is.

Turned out to be a little more than 2c, but what can I say? Insomnia sucks.

[CLB]

As this is the first post from a long, long time lurker of the RogueSpot forums, let me first say hi to all, and especially Osiris (whose guides kept me motivated to play the class all this time).

I feel there are a number of issues that were not addressed, and are extremely important (proverbial wall of text ensuing):

Due to class specifics, most rogues do best in 2v2 and 3v3 brackets. 2v2 bracket is a bit more flexible for us in terms of teammate choosing (basically any type of healer and most DPS is playable), and it is diverse enough to display the differences in specs for the most important factor: each team composition. From season 1 untill now, I have played in 2v2 bracket with a paladin, a feral druid, resto druid, a lock, a mage and a disc priest (peaking around 2000 with a lock in season 2).My experience is this:

With another DPS, your best spec is ShS, especially 20-0-41.
Why ShS? As 2 DPS you live or die on the ability to take one target down as soon as possible. Although we all agree that bursting someone down in pre-TBC ways is a distant memory, some type of coordinated joint DPS input to a single target at a very specific and short time is still needed, and still wins the game. Now, what I don't agree with most people is the definition of that "burst". Most people say :Mutilate has great KS-CB-mutilate burst, combat has good Adrenaline rush burst, especially when I time it right with a my mage/rogue/whatever teammate. I say, very simply, no. This isn't Patchwerk encounter. In 2v2 arenas, where constant CCing takes place, the most important part o any rogue's burst is the ability to stay on the target while it's in burst (low health, no cooldowns) range. Shadowstep is the only spec that allows you to mess up on the timing (example: get the hunter to burst range, but eat a cyclone/sheep/Frost trap) and still get the job done with a simple trinket-ShS or a trinket-CS-ShS combo. No other class, or even any other rogue spec, has this good of an ability to offensively stay on the target, especially when you take into consideration the short cooldowns of the abilities used. Imp.sprint will get you out of some situations, trinket -sprint will get you out of more, but you still have a long way to run, which leaves your target getting healed or you eating more delicious CCs. This is also why I disagree on the part of ShS being difficult for beginers in 2DPS setups: it's way more forgiving and easy to coordinate a burst with ShS than with mutilate or combat, esp. since mutilate and combat's core burst abilities are on a 5min cooldown.

Why 20-0-41 over 0-20-41 in 2DPS? Imp. sprint will take you very few places ShS won't, and you can still be snared/CCed right after. DW is more constant DPS, but 2DPS setup isn't a damage meters contest. You are always better with relentless+ruthlessness+vile poisons in 2DPS. A free combo point and free energy opens even more options on shutting down a target and staying on it.

With a healer, ShS is somewhat viable, but requires very good gear.
Although there are some specifics with a particular healer-rogue setup, there are a few things they all have in common:
1) the need for a very high sustainable rogue's DPS
2) Vile poisons 5/5

This makes combat mutilate and combat maces the obvious choices (esp. if you play with a priest, who covers a lot of ground with dispelling), with the scales tipping in the combat maces favor slightly due to the large
number of warrior teams. 20-0-41 can be a viable spec (due to having a relatively high sustainable DPS and vile poisons), but you need very good gear to shorten the gap to combat builds, especially since you don't have Precision and DW (S3 pieces with +hit help a lot ). Plus, it might be somewhat harder to find the right balance between offensive/defensive enchants and gems.

[Spoonguardd]

ShS is a good spec i beieve and is addapted well for the s3 styloe gameplay: Keeping pressure on the target for long periods, while not necissarily bursting them down.

As said by osiriz i belive that the spec and rogues in general need more mobility, i belive making improved sprint a standard skill and giving the combat tree a replacement skill (imune to snares for x no. seconds?) would be the most appropriate change.

As far as lack of burst goes, it does suck, i mean its easy to forget that rogues were suppost to be a high damage, burst class ^^. Thats why myself, i take expose armor rather than vile poisons - i find it gives me the a little extra damage/burst on targets and vile poisons never seemes to help much anyway vs. abolish poison and BoF. Normal dispells are not a problem and shamys are rarely met.

Since the ShS damage buff is fairly useless (most of the time, since the skill is usually needed for mobility), how about altering it. "+20% damage for 5 seconds". Yes this would probably be overpowered duration/%, but i belive a similar buff that is not consumed by one hit (since ShS rogues dont realy have a high damage "single hit" skill) would help to give rogues a greater burst. Full energy + ShS and nuke would in no way be overpowered but at the same time, give rogues a chance to nuke a target when it is needed.
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[Axler]

[MatthÌus]

Hey all, first post here.

Ive played a rogue for 3 years but i havent been playing in a few months, (wow altogether) and a hunter mate wants to start a 2v2 with me.

I was speaking to a very well respected in the rogue community, and skilled friend of mine, and he suggested going 20/0/41.
Getting imp expose armor, and opening with premed, cheapshot, expose armor, for massive damage from me and my mate.

Obviously our tactic would have to change as we progress up, as we wont be facing as easy to beat opponents.

I would consider myself to be a 'good' rogue but seen as i havent played in a few months?
And last time i checked my ap was very low, 1400 or something (not including mm buff i would get with the hunter) however i made up with 10.5khp 315resi, and 25% crit, 25% dodge chance.

Do you think i should? I havent really played alot of shadowstep atall, let alone this new version, and like i said, havent played rogue for a while, and cant wait to start arena. I just want to know whats best for me, i love pvp and have been doing it for years now.

No matter how much Mm hunter and Shs rogue would suck in 2v2 :>